Armor - Is it too good?

  • I feel like armor is a really good pickup on every warrior right now, is there a way we could balance the game more or create less incentive to build armor on damage dealers? Cause I feel like we are going to be seeing a lot of armor in the future as the current META unfolds.

  • Pen and armor are 1:1. With stun lock being taken out of the game (which I like a lot), it is much harder for people to finish off kills, especially in competitive matches or matches with a competent Alona. I think the best way to fix this issue is to increase damage output from all characters across the board (base damage on auto attacks and skills). A lower TTK basically, to balance out the kill potential taken away with the removal of stun lock.

  • @softwareqa if you could get time to kill in there somewhere would be sick! and dont forget to test for people who build health after armor too :)

  • Amazon Game Studios

    In general, I agree armor is too strong at the moment. Short term fix we will likely increase the cost of it in the next week. Long term we are still experimenting. Any ideas on how you all would balance armor?

  • @dualspirals Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to update my damage calculator with items so we can quantify just how strong armor is.

  • Actually i could vouch for this. I found a better sustainable performance on damage dealers building armor, health, armor pen, and the last item situational. if you want to argue damage output, i would argue sustainability and relic movement overwhelms and out performs a strictly damage build. You could get a lot of kills but die just as much and lose, vs losing some kills but being sustainable in skirmmishes. But thats most likely to change in the near future. adjustments are made weekly afterall. and when vs a jarra, it becomes a required buy anyways. so i wouldnt be shocked if its touched.

  • @rg_kashedout I tried playing a few games with a similar prioritization (Armor>Health>Damage>Movespeed) after reading this post, and found the sustainability you mentioned, as well as the benefits you mentioned. I need to try Armor Penetration.

    Hopefully the team can clarify the amount of time the Primary Attacks of each hero last. I'm sure it would be easy for me to test that in game though. I bet we can figure out an accurate DPS for different Warriors and Items tomorrow or the day after.

  • From what I can tell penetration cancels out armor 1 for 1 but, this does not mean your time to kill is going to change, therefore if the team with armor has a healer its likely for no one to be dying for at least the first 2 rounds.

  • @zin_ramu Armour is actually pretty balanced right now, I'd advocate for a raise in price for Armour Penetration. Looking through the damage numbers from various item paths Health is usually king, and has no direct reduction as armour does

  • @nhilayne Going to have to disagree with you on this, and I'll explain why. Firstly, Health has a direct reduction, Attack Damage upgrade. The reason health is balanced, besides being more expensive than armor, is that it is not hard countering anyone on the enemy team. Everyone still does the same damage to you as they did before, you're just beefier. But here's why having 1:1 Pen:Armor is an issue. Armor can hard counter anyone that does not build pen, because it massively reduces damage taken from anyone without pen. In other words, if the enemy tank just builds health, you don't all need to build damage and he's still going to die relatively quickly. In the current meta, if the enemy tank builds armor, the only way to do the same amount of damage across the board to ONE enemy player, is for your entire team to build penetration. But THEN, if you all build pen, you lose damage vs. players not building armor because most of them have only 5 base armor, meaning only level 1 pen is useful at all. This would be okay if pen and armor weren't relatively the same cost for a 1:1 cancel out of eachother. Pen needs to scale harder than armor in my opinion, or just make armor more expensive as suggested above by Zin.

    If you'd like to run numbers on this you can do so here

  • @xmewy Your tool only corroborates what mine says, in that in most cases, health is a better defensive buy against someone building straight damage, until armour level 4, but it only takes level 3 armour pen to cancel out that lead that heroic armour gives. As long as you're winning the economy game, hp is better; but if you're losing the economy game, armour is still not as good due to it's reactionary item (armour penetration) being cheaper to buy than the armour itself.

  • @nhilayne Tier 3 Armor Penetration does not negate the effect of Tier 4 armor. It only would cancel out 15 armor. Also, you have to remember that a team consists of four players, not just one. You're looking at this as a 1v1 as opposed to a 4v4. When operating balance, you have to consider how each item affects the entire enemy team and run this against the economy and the expected purchases of each player based on their character and role. In this case, Armor outshines HP in all aspects. Make a fictional team with realistic builds (Support probably not gonna have armor pen, maybe a sliver of it on your tank) and run those numbers against a Tier 4 Health whoever and then Tier 4 Armor of the same character. What you will find is that the Tier 4 armor will cause the character to take way less damage (% wise) vs a team of 4, than the Tier 4 health. Even if you ran this against a team with full armor pen and full AD, the full AD team is going to gain benefits vs every other enemy player, while the full pen team only benefits against players who have built armor. Mathematically speaking, you can never have a complete 1:1 Armor Pen/Armor ratio in a game unless the Armor penetration is cheaper to buy, or if each level of armor penetration benefits you vs. all 4 enemy players (This is how it works in every other game, but not Breakaway).

    PS: I am going to add gold cost for each of the items so you can calculate the total cost of your items, so stay tuned for that. This should help in economy analytics.

  • @xmewyeven against a 4 team hp will be better overall. while it's true that armour will be better at mitigating %dmg from supports and tanks will no/low tier attack/pen items, against more fully built damage dealers like kyra and argus, HP is still king. Armour gets a slight edge at tier 4 vs tier 3 penetration, but penetration is still cheaper than armour. going full pen will decrease damage against those with no armour after tier 1, but tier 1 pen is also the best first buy to deal damage with the exception of kyra, who gets 1.5 more damage from attack tier 1 at the cost of 300 more gold. I'm not saying armour is weak, against people with low to no pen it's great, but you shouldn't be worrying about the dps of an alona, and if a tank wants to do damage, they're better off going pen due to low scaling on abilities. On top of that armour pen is cheaper than armour at every stage, while being a 1:1 counter that is essentially useless past tier 1 unless they've already bought armour.

  • make it so armor scales better with health so people will also have to invest in health alongside armor

  • @xyzp I feel like in principle, that would just make armour even less worth the investment over health, since going health first would provide better % survivability and would make the armour you bought later scale better; but things like that are hard to quantify without numbers

  • @nhilayne no what im saying is in order for armor to really be effect you would need both health and armor at the same time thus limiting certain characters going damage armor builds at the start of the game

  • I let the game speak for itself. If you observe other players you will almost never see someone build hp first as opposed to armor. Health always comes AFTER armor because armor multiplies the effect of health drastically, and is way cheaper currently. Again, a 1:1 cancellation is just not healthy and will make tanks too strong.

  • Yeah if armor gets nerfed health probably needs adjusted too.

  • SO here's the thing, having looked at Nhilayne's calculator, the way you look at the data makes a difference. Rather then looking at how much damage is reduced, or how much health you get from the item, look at how many hits it takes to kill you. For example, Sai, with full armor, takes less hits to kill when the enemy has armor pen, then when he has health and they have damage (if that makes sense). Therefore, armor doesn't need to be nerfed. Buying health is better over all (except with Merrick since his base armor is so much higher then everyone else). Also, just because everyone's buying it doesn't mean it's right. Other people may have seen someone buy it who ended up beating them badly so they thought it was the optimal build.

    Also, the more people buy armor, the more worth armor pen is. Remember: You're not counting on your support or tank to do damage..... but if everyone on the other team is buying armor, its more worth it for the carry to buy armor pen since it effects more then one enemy. If only your tank buys armor, then the carry is buying armor pen (using 1 of their 4 item slots) just to deal with one person rather then buying cooldown, health, amulet or whatever they might have had otherwise. As a carry, I never buy armor pen if no one on their team is building armor (even against merrick). Just some of my thoughts on the subject.

  • @fullmetal372 You reiterated my exact point. "If only your tank buys armor, then the carry is buying armor pen (using 1 of their 4 item slots) just to deal with one person...". Buying armor affects the damage output of all 4 of your enemies. Past level one, Armor pen would only have any effect vs those on the enemy team with an actual armor upgrade (Or a Merrick). In other words, why should a carry be spending the same amount of gold to deal with one person as the enemy tank is spending to deal with 4?

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