Great Idea. Too Chaotic.

  • I love the idea of this game. It's literally an esport that has got the feel of rugby mixed in with team-fighting mechanics.

    Here are my thoughts, and I would love for someone to confirm or deny my points.

    Overall Gameplay:

    The game overall plays too chaotically. While there is play making potential its overrun by the fumble mechanic. I have yet to see a creative pass-play that has resulted in someone actually "breaking away." I think this is because the fumble mechanic triggers on any auto-attack, which allows for ranged characters to repeatedly force fumbles resulting in a series of clumsy "jump-ball scenarios." My first thought is that to enable the game's play making and scoring mechanics more rewarding. the fumble mechanics should be centered on hard cc mechanics, or after a substantial amount of damage is accrued by the relic carrier in a period of time. This way it gives teams the ability to react to the ball coming out, and being recovered or turned over.

    This revision also will enable a second manner in which the chaotic gameplay will be reduced. The characters will actually have roles. For example, lets take the bruiser Argus. If the ball is allowed to remain in possession over an amount of damage it makes it so that the tank is the natural first receiver, or a natural focus for possession. Meaning that now he not only has a unofficial role, he also becomes the unofficial target for dps heroes to play therefore creating more of a push-pull as teams work to move the ball. Team-fighting then becomes much more skill-oriented as now you have to assail the ball carrier without allowing dps characters to be picked off in the process, setting off a chain of events such as the "power-play" which would slant the odds of scoring in the favor of the offense. (this makes the power-play more meaningful as now the tank won't drop the ball on one-hit from any remaining opponents.


    I feel as though the heroes are relatively underwhelming in this game, and as mentioned in the first part of the post, I feel as though none of them have clear cut roles on the team save as pass targets and dps targets. The only type of hero that really makes a difference in-game are support healers. Which allow for you to consistently jump-ball your way across the map without dying.

    Personally I think that there shouldn't be unique identities in this game in terms of characters, rather the players should be able to choose between 3 different positions say. Tank, DPS, Support. And within these classes the player has the ability to unlock different pieces of load out in the same way you would unlock skins. These pieces of gear would in turn dictate your "player's" move kit and ultimate. This allows for the game to create specific player roles and responsibilities, while also giving them the means to team-comp in-game, and between rounds. In terms of learning the actual game, this also would allow for new players to play with mechanics that are easier to understand, and then allow for them to develop their own method of success as they gain experience. The item buying system feels detracting if used when not dead/between rounds and should be eliminated entirely to create a more seamless game-flow.

    I hate that I had to download the twitch/curse client for this.

    I will continue to play to see how my skill develops over the next few days. I am more than willing to edit overall as I learn and understand more.

  • Amazon Game Studios

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Intensity is an important goal for the game, but we never want the game to feel chaotic.

    We are actually testing a prototype, where primary attacks don't fumble the relic, only abilities. I'd love to here from you all. Does this sound interesting? Any other ideas from the community on how to improve the Relic interactions?

  • @zin_ramu I'd definitely be interested in seeing a build like the one you describe. One concern I would have is that I'm now being forced into using my abilities to fumble a relic runner, rather than execute some combo that makes my character fun. On the other hand, I could see it making characters like Jarra use their abilities a bit more sparsely rather than dumping them all into one squishie Sai.

    I like the idea behind what @lyteslinger mentioned, having to deal X amount of damage to a relic carrier to fumble the relic, or maybe just Y number of hits in general. The thing I worry about with a system like this is it making relic running way too easy, as between passing and a mechanic like this, I don't think you'd stand a chance at stopping a good team's rush.

    Maybe a combination of both, where you have a number of hits you can take before fumbling the relic (which will be deducted regardless of whether or not you're holding the relic), but getting hit by an ability will cause a fumble every time? This way, team fighting has the added purpose of keeping enemy player's fumble meters low, but someone can regenerate their fumble meter away from combat and set up for a breakaway.

  • @zin_ramu Primary attacks not stopping ball-runners sounds like an interesting concept worth trying out. I feel like in order to keep it balanced with the current power of pass plays that E passing may have to be removed to compensate for the seemingly more ease of running the ball.

  • "none of them have clear cut roles on the team save as pass targets and dps targets."

    I think it's better to keep the roles diluted as they are now, rather than enforcing strict role assignment. This gives players the freedom to choose the characters that they enjoy playing, rather than being rail-roaded into "meta" picks. Forcing a player to play a specific role, or play the best tank/support/dps isn't fun at all for that player. This is also important for a game like Breakaway which is designed as a spectator sport. Creating an environment where e-sports teams will play the same teams with distinct roles every times isn't fun to watch.

  • @zin_ramu I imagine a lot of frustration coming out of a "deal this amount of damage or attack the carrier this amount of times to make them drop it" mechanic.

    I'm interested in seeing how making it so primary attacks don't cause a ball drop affects the game, however I think to balance out what I imagine will be a runner's haven with this change, there should be a short, personal cooldown on players who get the ball fumbled out of their hands, not allowing them to quickly pick the relic back up again.

    Test, test, test!

  • @zin_ramu interesting idea on the primary attacks not fumbling however with a system like that i think that relic running would become way to common over any other type of play. One thing i would love to see tried would be when the relic runner is, hit the ball pops up in a random direction or so, if this testing was to be primary attacks cant be used then i can see in its current state the game being very ball running heavy saving your abilities for breakaways and not for team fights.

    I talked about this in a recent episode of the relic room podcast about being afraid of the game becoming sort of the way overwatch is both teams staying back until they got abilities then going in using them all reset repeat. I understand the fear of to much chaos in the game however it is a fine balance that we know you guys are testing.

    I think this would be an interesting change however with the current state of very little repercussions of fumbling the relic i can see it being a bit unbalanced.

    I love to see these types of testing and changes

  • @zin_ramu said in Great Idea. Too Chaotic.:

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Intensity is an important goal for the game, but we never want the game to feel chaotic.

    We are actually testing a prototype, where primary attacks don't fumble the relic, only abilities. I'd love to here from you all. Does this sound interesting? Any other ideas from the community on how to improve the Relic interactions?

    I will never be one to say don't test things out especially during an alpha. This is the perfect time to make game changing things like removing hit stun and primary attacks not fumbling.

    If you were to remove primary attacks ability to fumble there would have to be some pretty major nerfs to relic running in general. Right now running the relic is already a very popular and strong strategy. Removing primary attacks ability to fumble would make this strat the single best play style in the game....if you made no other changes around it.

    If abilities are the only way to force a fumble you will probably need to do many things to help balance around that. A few off the top of my head:

    Reduce the cooldown on a lot of the abilities.
    Nerf passing(Putting a coodown on how often you can pass or something along those lines)
    Nerf Juggling(Right now the same person can get fumbled over and over and it really isn't too hard for that person to instantly pick the relic back up by themselves.)

    Clearly I can not possibly know for sure until I actually play with it so this is all speculation. However, if you were to just change primary attacks in this situation and leave all other aspects of the game the same I believe the game would drastically favor a relic running playstyle. Right now I already feel relic running is the stronger win condition of the 3. Again speculation, but this change with nothing else would make the game revolve mainly around relic running. Whether thats a bad thing I do not know. Maybe the future of the game is better if the primary goal is to relic run who can say without testing. Right now though I am happy with the idea of 3 win conditions being equally viable. Won't know for sure without testing though!

  • @zin_ramu

    Changing the focus of the game like that could be interesting, but it's hard for me to understand how much it changes how the current set of warriors play without trying it. Would limiting primary attacks like that limit how unique the future warrior's skills and primary attacks can be? Are team fights considered a disruption to the flow of the game that require a change to prevent them?

    Pass, pick-up, and/or primary attacks getting cooldowns could change how much the ball gets knocked around instead. Perhaps you could have another skill when holding the relic that shares a cooldown with the dash and/or pass skill to help someone escape the pile ups.

    Just throwing some thoughts out there. I'm not sure if they would be good or bad changes.

  • @zin_ramu I think it's a great idea. I think hard cc abilities should cause fumbles and that dps characters with damage oriented abilities should have more damage to make rushing the relic in a more precarious situation. I played a few games as a marksman style character with attack damage and armor shred and cool down reduction and it felt like aside from forcing fumbles repeatedly, I wasn't killing people.

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